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THE SNOW LION BUDDHIST NEWS & CATALOG
Lama Lodö and His Holiness the XVII Karmapa
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Relating to H.H. the Karmapa, Lama Lodu Rinpoche Interview
Lama Lodu received a visit earlier this year from H.H. the 17th Karmapa. In this interview he speaks with a student about "the four reliances" in connection with His Holiness.
Question: There are four aphorisms called the "Four Reliances." Would you comment on these with relation to His Holiness the 17th Karmapa? The first is, "rely on the message of the teacher not his personality."
Lama Lodu Rinpoche: In an absolute sense the message is what we rely on. The message comes from the enlightened mind of the teacher. But personality matters as well; it can intensify the teacher's beneficial activity. With HH the 17th Karmapa, the stainless quality of his outward manner, his unparalleled compassion, is felt by all who see him. Instantly there arises the recognition that what they have encountered is a being of profound purity, someone who can help them. The power of His Holiness' personality reaches out and connects with every level of humankind, transforming them and opening their hearts to his message. His Holiness is free of the extremes expressed in the adage you asked about because in His Holiness' case his personality powerfully reflects the truth of his message; there is no distinction between them.
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Q: The second reliance says, "rely on the meaning not just the words." How do we understand His Holiness' meaning apart from his words?
LLR: Though they may hear the same words, different individuals hear different meanings. True meaning, true understanding of the words depends on the qualifications of the disciple, how advanced the disciple is. At the same time, it falls on the teacher to convey the meaning in words conducive to the mind of the student. If the teacher is qualified, if he or she is completely awakened, that teacher will automatically use the right words which communicate the true meaning.
Q: So a qualified teacher will spontaneously speak in a manner that a student will understand?
LLR: A qualified teacher, yes. Definitely His Holiness Orgyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa.
Q: The day Karmapa came to your center in San Francisco there were many people desperate to see his face, breathe the same air and so forth. Is that a superstitious attitude? Where does it come from?
LLR: People who have heard of Karmapa, who have seen his picture on TV or in the newspapers or in TIME magazine know only that he is famous. So they are curious to see him, to be near him in the way people act toward a famous movie actor. This type of motivation doesn't have too much spiritual content. For others, the connection is more meaningful. They are aware of the lineage, that in Tibet His Holiness is a renowned spiritual leader, not just this century, but for hundreds of years in the past, for generations. He is a great master and his purity and enlightened compassion attract people. Some believe in "liberation by seeing" which fulfills all good wishes: long life, good health, a peaceful mind filled with loving kindness and compassion. These are their expectations. Many people have a strong karmic connection from a past life. They comprehend His Holiness' qualities, they know he is an enlightened being and they desperately want to see him. People may be at the end of their life, and so they wish to experience a peaceful mind, passing from this life to the next. They crave Karmapa's blessings to achieve this.
Q: The third reliance states: "rely on the real meaning not the provisional meaning."
LLR: The provisional meaning, the relative meaning, is a fake, it is interdependent origination; we see a table, we call it a table, but if we take the table apart, piece-by-piece, there is no table, no table essence. Real meaning, absolute meaning is emptiness unimpeded and luminous. The real meaning of His Holiness is that there is no His Holiness, the notion of His Holiness is a convention, a relative, provisional concept. The real meaning of His Holiness is Dharmakaya, beyond existence and nonexistence: the spontaneous appearance of compassion and wisdom for the benefit of all beings.
Q: The final reliance states: "rely on our wisdom-mind, not on our ordinary, judgmental mind."
LLR: We gain wisdom-mind through study and reflection and meditation. The most effective of those three techniques is meditation. Wisdom-mind keeps us on the path; relying on judgmental, ordinary, or relative mind reinforces self-clinging, which is why we've remained from beginningless time in samsara.
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Ven. Lama Lodu Rinpoche is the author of many books, including Chod Practice Manual and Commentary, Bardo Teachings, and Quintessence of the Animate and Inanimate. His center, Kagyu Droden Kunchab, is located at 1892 Fell Street, San Francisco, CA 94117 (415) 752-5454.
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