THE SNOW LION NEWSLETTER

KKGR: The three poisons are interconnected; without one, the others cannot exist. There is not so much discussion of desire because this topic is a little sensitive. However, if there is no desire, there is no arising of anger. When there is no ignorance, there is no reason that desire and anger would arise. They are inter-related. The main problem is ignorance—it obscures the pureness of the mind. Because of this, we misperceive the way that phenomena exist. For example, all phenomena are impermanent, yet we perceive phenomena as permanent. Everything is changing every moment, every second, but in our mind we hold phenomena as something substantial and real. If that is present in our mental state, then when we see things we like we will have desire, whether for a person or material things. That desire brings up greed and possessiveness. When we encounter obstacles to our desire, anger will pop up. Anger in this situation is very destructive. Desire is to possess, to want, to have. Anger is to destroy obstacles to this desire. Because they are based in ignorance, we need to understand the interdependent nature of phenomena. All types of causes and conditions come together—no entity is independent. This is what we mean by emptiness—there is no independent entity.

JC: If you asked someone on the street, an average person, "Do you think things are permanent?" she or he would probably say no, I don't think anything is permanent. They see things changing and decaying. So it is not its impermanence that makes a thing less desirable. People know it is impermanent. If you were very hungry and I showed you a piece of an apple and I said, "This apple is impermanent, do you agree?" You might say, "Yes it is impermanent, I can see that it is turning yellow in your hand." But you are not going to want it less because you know it is impermanent.

KKGR: Yes, but there is an intellectual understanding of impermanence, and there is the actual experience. In our intellectual understanding, we know things are changing constantly, people are born and die. At the same time, in the mind, there is ignorance and the desire to hold on to the object as something permanent—there is grasping due to the habit of lifetimes to grasp onto objects. That habitual tendency to grasp is so powerful that we may understand impermanence intellectually but practically speaking that understanding is not accepted. That is how we are suffering.

JC: So you are saying that it is the grasping that is the problem?

KKGR: That is right—the habit of grasping. It is called an inveterate propensity. It is a deeply rooted habit. Because of that we need a lot of meditation practices to purify it. It takes a long time. People say that Buddhism makes sense intellectually, but when it comes to practice, it is so difficult. We make efforts to change our habits but they stay there, like a sticky glue. This causes frustration—we want to get rid of grasping as soon as possible. It is very important to practice the mindfulness of impermanence, to purify our attachment and to let go—to remain present. The past is past, the future is not here. We must not be lazy, we have to be full of mindfulness and willingness to work hard.

JC: In my experience, it seems that grasping itself becomes painful. The energy of grasping becomes the source of suffering. It is not whether or not you get the object you want that is the problem. The energy of grasping creates division inside of us, it pulls us apart. I find that what breaks patterns of desire is when I can feel desire itself as a source of suffering.

KKGR: Ignorance, desire, and anger—they are the nature of suffering. I am sure you have heard of the suffering of condition, suffering of change, and the suffering of suffering. Ignorance is the suffering of condition, desire is the suffering of change, and anger is the suffering of suffering. When you desire to have a delicious meal, this is afflicted happiness. When you eat too much, that brings the suffering of change.

JC: Desire is tricky because hunger by itself is not so much a problem. A begging Buddhist monk has to accept what is put in his bowl, but he is allowed to have the bowl and ask for food. On the other hand, anger seems offensive no matter what. Isn't it hard for people to understand which desires are healthy and which are not healthy?

KKGR: Desires such as the desire to meditate so that you can be freed from desire are based on reason. The Buddha asked the monks to get food to sustain life, not to create suffering. Other desires are based on just grasping and wanting to have, without reason. With regard to anger, when you see wrathful deities, they express anger, but not to hate or destroy others, but rather to get rid of the cause of suffering. There are highly enlightened beings who can see that peaceful means of helping are not working, so they show anger or wrathfulness so that people will, out of fright, wake up and accept the teaching and be freed from their mistakes. This is wrathful activity based on wisdom and compassion.

JC: I imagine that you have had teachers who were strong with you at certain moments to try to wake you up?

KKGR: That is right—like the way that Marpa treated Milarepa. On the outside, it looks as if Marpa is very angry, but on the inside, he is full of wisdom and skillful means and compassion. He expresses his anger to Milarepa to get him to follow the right path.

JC: I would like to go back to your statement that there wasn't so much discussion on desire because it was a little sensitive. What do you mean by that?

KKGR: If we talk too much about giving up desire, people will think that Buddhism is useless to practice because it counters the development of modern comforts and technology.

JC: You are saying that people desire a more comfortable life, and have developed technology to give us comfort. These things can lead to greed and more suffering, but it wouldn't be skillful for Buddhism to teach that desire was an obstacle to happiness. People might then reject the teachings—they see the advantages of having various comforts.

KKGR: We don't reject modern technology, because we need contentment and appreciation. It is useful to have contentment with what you have because it is an antidote for desire.

JC: So if people are basically content, it helps to calm the mind. So you can then practice more easily than if you are not content and wanting what you don't have.

KKGR: No matter how much you have, desire has no limit. You will want more and more. This brings more suffering instead of enjoyment of what you have.

JC: Doesn't the pursuit of comfort help sustain the sleep of ignorance?

KKGR: Attachment to comfort is based on ignorance. Buddhism teaches the middle path—not to want too little, not to want too much—no extreme. Imbalance will bring suffering—so follow the middle path. The practice of contentment will make life easier.

JC: Did you ever see the "Message of the Tibetans" videos? These films are about Tibetans fresh from Tibet in the 1960s. One thing that impressed me about this film is that I can feel that these people lived a life in Tibet of physical hardship, but they have a lot of energy—their bodies look strong and resistant to difficulties. I feel that there was something about the lifestyle that made Tibet what it was—an "enlightenment factory" as Robert Thurman likes to say. So many people were practicing intensely and there were so many enlightened guides. When we speak of moderation and comfort, I wonder about it. My idea of moderation would look like luxury to these people. Could you please speak about the life style and Buddhist practice in Tibet?

KKGR: It is true that for centuries there were many great practitioners; Tibet was a factory of enlightened beings. In a sense, those great practitioners really have comfort because of the all-pervading nature of their wisdom and compassion, the inseparableness of compassion and wisdom in the non-afflicted state of mind. That perfect being is free from all this suffering.

JC: You are saying that people like this would not be uncomfortable in harsh conditions because they are so powerful. I have heard about yogis raising the heat in their bodies so they can be comfortable in cold environments.

KKGR: Milarepa once told his sister: When people observe my outer conditions, tears come into their eyes; even my enemies are sympathetic with me. But when Buddha sees my mind, he is very pleased and joyful about my mind's state. Regardless of the outer conditions, when you have inner clarity and stability, then you are in the dimension or palace of the enlightened state—and you will be comfortable.

JC: We have learned to create, through science, material comforts and conveniences that yogis could do with their minds. For example, we have telephones, so we do not need to develop clairvoyant abilities.

KKGR: The mind has the power to do these things itself.

JC: If I could raise my body temperature, I wouldn't need the furnace in my house and wouldn't have to pay these large fuel bills.

KKGR: Life would be much simpler.

JC: The yogis in the film looked like they could take care of themselves.

KKGR: They are content. In my life, I have met such great teachers, such as my retreat master whose life was so simple. He had nothing, yet he was like a king! He had everything, nothing was lacking—he showed the power of mental achievement. Also, I have received many teachings from the remarkable Khunu Rinpoche. In 1985, I went to Tibet and saw a retreat master, Pachang Rinpoche. He was like the king of the universe. In his eyes was great wisdom, compassion and dignity. If anyone had questions or any type of suffering, they could go there and get the blessings and answers needed. We can see the great power of the mind—it is more powerful than anything else.

JC: And what is the secret to develop a mind like this? Is it the tantric technologies?

KKGR: It is not just tantra. First you must understand the disadvantages of ignorance, desire, anger, pride, jealousy—the poisons. You need a strong understanding that these need to be purified. This is the fundamental way to reveal our inner mental qualities. To have this you must have strong devotion, determination, and dedication—which is not so easy. We do need outer comforts, but they will not bring actual happiness or joy. We have to realize that. When we are fully convinced of this, and we work with an authentic teacher, then we can overcome the delusions and confusions of samsara and be free from this cycle—and reveal the enlightened qualities.

Interview by Jeff Cox.

More about Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche . . .

Read more about Khenchen Konchog Gyaltshen Rinpoche's teachings.