THE SNOW LION NEWSLETTER


Lama Surya Das and H.H. the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa with retreatants at Dzogchen Osel Ling

Lineage Blessings:
A Conversation between Lama Surya Das and His Holiness the Twelfth Gyalwang Drukpa

His Holiness the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa is the Head of the Drukpa School of Tibetan Buddhism, one of Tibet's great practice lineages. He is considered the reincarnation of Naropa and Chenrezig and is renowned as a master of the Mahamudra and Dzogchen lineages. His Holiness has large monasteries and nunneries in Darjeeling, Nepal and Hemis Gompa in Ladakh as well as centers in Europe and Mexico. His teachings, translations, and tapes can be found at http://www.drukpa.com/index.htm. This is His Holiness' first interview in ten years.

His Holiness is an old friend of Lama Surya Das, who was his English tutor at his monastery in Darjeeling, India in the early Seventies when His Holiness was 10-11 years of age. Lama Surya Das is the founder of the Dzogchen Center and author of Natural Radiance, Awakening the Buddha Within and a number of other books.

This conversation took place at Lama Surya's hermitage and sanctuary, Dzogchen Osel Ling, outside Austin, Texas. The Dzogchen Center will host His Holiness again in the United States during the first week of May 2006 when he will teach in Cambridge and New York City. See http://www.dzogchen.org for details.

Lama Surya Das: What is the essence of Buddha Dharma in your view?

His Holiness: If you ask what I expect for my students, the simple answer is that I want them to be happy. Genuinely, unconditionally happy. That means, of course, spiritually they have to experience inner happiness, regardless of material gains, achievement or personal circumstances and situation. Inner realization is unconditional happiness. We are always seeking something, trying to see, to know, just like we try to get ordinary things and accumulate ideas, looking outwardly for what is not really to be found there. But not seeing is true seeing; not knowing is true knowing. It goes deep. It is beyond concepts and mere intellectual understanding.

The first level of knowing comes in the form of teaching, teaching from the lineage tree, from the masters, as it's been passed down from the Buddha until now. Then you have to get further into it, learning, practicing, experiencing and realizing it. Then that's it! That's the essence, the essence of dharma, essence of life realization, essence of Dharmakaya, essence of love, essence of being. That is the Buddha's wisdom-intention for us.


His Holiness the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa and Lama Surya Das

SD: I have a wonderful feeling of vajra feast or pure perception while talking to you about these things. You appreciate everything, just as it is, without shying away or hesitation. How is it that you enjoy everything as the free dance of the Dharmakaya?

HH: Fresh and open; easy. No problem. No attachment. Bigger mind, the great view, that should not be drawn down into a small corner. It should be the other way around, with everything opening up to you through Dharma practice and realization.

Maybe to start with, you are very narrow-minded, but as you begin to know about the meaning of spirituality and then you know more deeply Mahamudra or Dzogchen or Madhyamika, then you slowly have not only the broader view, but also the experience and actual feeling. Then you will like everything! You will feel comfortable wherever you are and you will feel comfortable towards almost everything that is not harmful to anybody.

Of course, some things are unfortunately quite painful, quite harmful; those are not recommendable. But you are not to hate them either; hatred is not accepted. So you have to appreciate it as it is, in reality. This is the reason why all the great gurus always have a very open mind to ALL phenomena. They may not necessarily like something, but they are really always right there with it. Acceptance is there at some level. Masters don't hide in a monastery or a corner of Dzogchen or Mahamudra, shutting out the chaos, noise and pain and closing their eyes to the world.


Lama Surya Das and H.H. the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa on the grounds of Dzogchen Osel Ling

SD: There are many kinds of meditation, obviously, not to mention other contemplative practices. What do you think is most critical to teach?

HH: Please don't be a dumb meditator, a thought-wiper trying not to think, falling into the extreme of trying not to do anything in life. This is quietism, not the wisdom of the Middle Way. This is much too simple minded. It is important to learn how to meditate, not to just do it without guidance or direction. That would be like throwing stones in the dark and hoping to hit a target. Learning and practice have to go hand in hand, or you'll find it as difficult as trying to climb a mountain either without legs and hands (practice) or without head and eyes (learning, guidance); for we actually need both on the spiritual journey. I mainly hope to educate people who really want to be authentic Bodhisattvas and Vajrayana practitioners and Buddhist practitioners seeking wisdom and enlightenment.

Too many Buddhist practitioners unfortunately are becoming corrupted today. I discourage my students, followers, and friends from becoming sectarian, dogmatic, spiritual materialists or involved in Dharma politics. Actually it is becoming a drama, not Dharma, not too different from our worldly society, with politics, competition, criticism, power struggles, egotism, pride and greed. This kind of corruption, which is in our own minds, must be dealt with. This is what we Tibetans call "turning the god into a demon," turning sacred spirituality into a worldly commodity or ego's domain.

It is quite important to maintain purity of heart and a positive outlook, keep your vows and commitments at whatever level you may have undertaken them, be in harmony with all, cultivate altruism and loving kindness, and continue to practice diligently, every day, every hour, one way or another. Recognize whatever comes as blessings, as teachings, as the guru's gifts or grace and all will be well. It is not easy to understand these sorts of things with the intellect, but a little trust and devotion go a long way to helping us find what we are looking for here.

SD: Can you speak to us about guru yoga and the importance of finding a teacher?

HH: I'll take this opportunity to talk a little about the guru, how to approach the guru and who is the real guru. It is not just how a teacher talks and what he or she says. We need to know how to look at the guru's mind: that is the realization of the mind rather than just of the body and speech. The most important qualities are the understanding of perfect, selfless wisdom and unconditional, impartial compassion. These two are very much dependent on each other. Whoever helps us to develop such enlightened qualities is like a guru or precious teacher to us. I don't think we need to be in a hurry to decide who is our root guru and who is not, who is qualified and authentic or not. Just check and see if the teacher before you is wise, kind, unselfish, generous and helpful, and then follow the instructions as given. You'll get the blessings and the benefits eventually.

You don't need to go around to a number of different teachers and talk in a comparative way about all the different teachers and teachings. People in the West seem to do that a lot and it often gives rise to doubt and confusion. The Dharma teachings are quite simple, and it is important to learn a little and to put that into practice. Some learning can help our practice, and is not an unnecessary distraction; however, too much intellectualization can get in the way. It is very important to make enlightenment and the benefit of all beings your goal, but not to be a fanatic about it or about your particular guru and tradition either. Eventually you will have to go beyond the outer guru and also beyond any notion of enlightenment, or you'll remain caught in a corner, a partial view of reality, which is not freedom at all.

SD: Your Holiness, I've come to think of teaching and transmission as related but not the same. The lineage transmits the blessing, something invisible; and the teaching is more like the visible. So how important is it for everyone to have a personal teacher? Many Westerners feel like they cannot find an authentic, qualified personal teacher and that the Buddha, the Dharma and the meditation practice is the teacher. Many in the West think that instead of real gurus we have information and learning. What is your feeling about this?

HH: Many years ago in India, Tibet, Japan, Korea, and Thailand many people got enlightened, with the support and encouragement of wise and experienced teachers.

Not many people are experiencing this kind of spiritual enlightenment in the West, in modern life and times. Why not? Because they are depending too much on the intellect; they're not depending on the lineage blessings and experience. You can learn, you can know, but not necessarily be accomplished. You can be very big in your head, but that doesn't mean anything, except your head will be very heavy. And the teachings won't go to the heart because there's no lineage, no transmission of the authentic mind-to-mind non-conceptual blessings, from wisdom heart to your heart.

SD: Many lamas have talked about lineage, and Westerners have a hard time understanding this. We think we have our own "lineages." For example we don't just read a book, we look to see who wrote the book, and if the author holds a Ph.D., has worked with a well-regarded scholar or has specific qualifications. This is the Western way of thinking of lineage for passing down information. What is it about authentic lineage that is passed on or transmitted?

HH: A blessing. The blessing is something very mysterious, actually. It is not only mysterious, it has a lot of substance. There are also years and decades, centuries of experience here, amidst the blessings and teaching. There's an unbelievable sense of transformation of your mental state, liberating your mind and opening your heart. How can I express it, because it's like tasting honey? It's sweet. But sweet means what? It's inexpressible. I feel very happy, delighted, delicious, but I can't express it—until you taste it, and then we can share something of the experience together. This is one aspect of the blessing, of course, which a book cannot give you. But this is not the only important aspect. What I care about is that the blessing is truly transforming. Your life transforms into the divine state of mind. Even though you live the same way, everything is different—concepts, precepts, everything is different. Yesterday maybe you were unhappy; perhaps you were stealing, cheating, drinking, or simply dissatisfied or depressed. But last night perhaps by good karma you have seen the appropriate guru and have been inspired to change and today you have changed. This is not necessarily overnight, it may take years or decades but time doesn't matter. It changes everything, the whole world, your whole attitude. Your whole life can be transformed.

From my point of view, if there is no guru, there is no way to get enlightenment. I'm one hundred percent sure. You have to have a personal transmission from a qualified genuine guru, one who has the lineage and is qualified to give this. If you don't have the lineage, your practice and path is uncooked, unfinished. If you don't have a human master who gave you the lineage, it cannot be received from a book. The Drukpa lineage has specialized in meditation and inner yoga and is not very much into academic things. They found that too much academic knowledge disturbs the practice of the truth.

SD: Holiness, is this idea something we can understand, even if we haven't experienced it? Many have experienced something like this in the presence of a master. As you were describing, when you are around His Holiness the Dalai Lama you feel like it's the real Potala, here is Dewachen, the paradisical Buddha-field, everything is perfect and blissful, complete, at peace and at rest.

Some have had this feeling in the presence of a genuine master, and then after the master and the student part it fades. So how does the student fully receive the blessing? How can the blessing be cultivated?

HH: That question will be very easily answered. The master's role is giving teaching. The student's role is not only just to experience it and say, "Ahhh, great, I am very happy! That was very nice." That's not all that we want. The good feeling is a blessing, but that has to be utilized, practiced, integrated into oneself. You have to practice, continuously. For that to happen, in that respect, the guru has to give instruction, that's the real thing, the lineage. This is like a doctor who has an understanding of the patient and knows what the patient needs. The patient knows the doctor is good; so now is the time to take the treatment and apply the remedy in the right sequence, so the intended results can be achieved.

SD: Then the patient must go home and keep taking the medicine.

HH: Keep taking the medicine and not just say, "I have the medicine" or "I had a good chat with the doctor and I feel very good about him." If you don't take the medicine, and it lies on your table and is then forgotten, it doesn't help. So, the patient and doctor, the student and teacher, both have to respond and interact with each other, interact and work together. That's the lineage transmission. This is the result of ripening karma, not mere accident. You have to seek and pursue that.

SD: Often you talk about appreciation; what does it really mean to appreciate everything?

HH: No matter whether you are Buddhist or not, a spiritual practitioner or not, appreciation is very important. Appreciation is a great thing; you really need to have it. This is what I think from the heart. Appreciate, appreciate, appreciate. There is no real reason why you should not be happy, unless maybe there's too much complaining and not enough appreciation. I don't use the word gratitude here, because for gratitude it seems most often we think we need somebody else there. In our Buddhist attitude, we don't have anybody there to thank as if above us or responsible. We shouldn't be stuck with that dualistic outlook.

Whatever I have achieved, or good things I have received, I offer to my guru. This is my routine anyway, my ritual. I give it to my guru, from my depth of heart. And this is not only giving, this is really giving with appreciation for what he has been giving me. So this is my personal experience or the way I practice.

SD: What can you say to us about attachment? The Western mind always says, "Tell us how." What is the practical advice?

HH: From the time you take refuge, you are not supposed to be attached. That's the reason the Refuge has to be given by a very skillful master. Not just saying Buddha is great, you've taken refuge, so you will be taken care of by the Buddha. This is important because if attachment goes up all the way to enlightenment, then you can't get the connection with the true nature. Actually attachment pushes you away from the true nature. Even though you practice genuinely, diligently, it always keeps you away because you have attachment—in Tibetan, shenpa.

Okay Surya, you're a very good friend of mine. Do I have an attachment to you? Of course I do. Even Sakyamuni liked his close disciples and said he was sad when his foremost disciples, Sariputra and Maudgalyana, died. Of course, it's natural. That's not exactly the issue we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not Sakyamuni believed they were really existing and were "his." These are the points to think about, not whether you have attachment or not. What is the Middle Way? How much is too much, and what are the effects of those attachments, cravings and clingings?

SD: Is that how it is for you? You can feel attachment without chakpa, dzinpa, shenpa (dualistic reactivity), without attachment?

HH: Oh, yes. One hundred per cent. I do have a strong attachment, I do—such as to my beloved parents, who still care very much for me and help me too—but it is empty bliss attachment, not burdensome heavy stuckness. Everything is blissfully empty, just in arising at all. That's how I see it. That's how it is taught.

SD: Your Holiness, please speak about the essence of retreat and any closing thoughts.

HH: The essence of retreat is to develop yourself and your way of life, really develop your happiness. Develop and improve your understanding so that when you come out, you're very happy. That happiness can be shared with, maybe not all sentient beings, but a good number. Many people you've met and who you will meet will be delighted to see you and will be benefited and even blessed by your happiness.


Drolma Lha-kang (Tara Temple) at Dzogchen Osel Ling

You are not gaining anything externally; you are losing something. We have too much already, too much ego, too many concepts and material things, so maybe you lose something. That could be of benefit—that kind of benefit is more than enough. The essence of retreat is that you can be satisfied and fulfilled just by being yourself, alone, thinking about the true nature of things, universal reality, gaining wisdom through insight into that.

We don't need to overcomplicate things with all sorts of namtoks, wandering discursive thoughts, superstitions, doubts and over-thinking everything. Be strong and straightforward within, have strong intention, and develop firm faith, devotion and inner conviction. What you decide to do, you can do; just keep practicing and learning. The most important thing in life is to be happy and not to harm others, and moreover if you can genuinely help others that is excellent.

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More about His Holiness the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa and Lama Surya Das . . .

To read more about His Holiness the 12th Gyalwang Drukpa, visit his website at: www.drukpa.org.

His Holiness's video recordings include:

His Holiness has written several articles in The Dragon Magazine (currently free with your Snow Lion order, while supplies last). To order a subscription, please visit The Dragon Magazine website: www.drukpa.com or email them at info@drukpa.com .


Use the following link to visit Lama Surya Das' home page: www.dzogchen.org/surya or visit www.snowlionpub.com/pages/das.html

Lama Surya Das is the author/contributor to a number of books and recordings, including: