THE SNOW LION NEWSLETTER

Interview with Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron:
On Sadhana Practices, Shopping Malls, and Her New Book

Jeff Cox: How do you see sadhana practice—as a whole—fitting into the larger array of spiritual practices? Many students seem to have confusion about what they're doing and why.

Bhikshuni Thubten Chodron: That's one of the reasons I wrote Cultivating a Compassionate Heart: to really explain the psychological meaning of all the components of sadhanas in general, so that practitioners can be cognizant while they're doing them of the effect each piece of the practice has on the mind, and why it's important.

JC: I was struck by how useful I found your book. Whether one's practicing Chenrezig or Tara or Vajrsattva or Manjushri and so on, many of the foundational practices—and the issues that come up around them—are the same.

BTC: Of course, in Tibetan Buddhism practitioners are usually encouraged not to begin with sadhana practice. First you're supposed to have a good understanding of Lam Rim and the fundamental Buddhist world-view. That is what gives you the background so that you can understand what to do in the sadhana practice.

In setting a good foundation for sadhana practice, the student can sometimes have a practice of watching the breath or the four mindfulness practices and things like that. These might help you get in touch with what's going on in your body-mind right now, before you go into sadhana practice where you're dissolving your body-mind into emptiness.

JC: Yes, a lot of people need to get to their body-mind first.

BTC: One of the difficulties people have is that they jump into tantra too soon before having an awareness of what's going on in their present body and mind. That's why setting a proper foundation for sadhana practice is very important.

Usually I teach mindfulness and breathing at first, but some people cannot focus on the breath: it's not the right object of meditation for them. Maybe they had asthma when they were little. Who knows what it is, but it's not the right thing. Whereas if they have an image of Chenrezig or Tara or the Buddha it's so much easier for their mind to stay focused. For people with that kind of inclination and tendency, using a visualized image that they find in a sadhana is much more effective and they don't get frustrated in their meditation.

JC: I'm impressed by the architecture of sadhanas—the way they weave in many of the so-called beginning practices to make a complete system.

BTC: Yes! Sadhana practice contains so many of the Lam Rim meditations. It's not just visualization and chanting mantra. You start out meditating on refuge and on bodhicitta. You have the four immeasurables and the great resolve. Then you do the practices to purify your mind and create positive potential: the seven-limbed prayer and the mandala offering. Those practices are really important. Often people get stuck in their dharma practice because they haven't done enough purification and enough creation of positive potential, so when you do those things, following the sadhana, it really helps prepare your mind for meditation; it unblocks a lot of things. Then, when you make the request prayer, what you're doing is really increasing your motivation because you're putting your deepest, heartfelt wish out there in the presence of the Buddha, dharma, sangha, saying what you want to actualize and asking for their inspiration. There's something very powerful in vocalizing what our deepest spiritual aspiration is in the presence of the three jewels.

JC: Do you find that students need to be reminded how important this part of the practice is? So many people think it's all about the deity. A simple refuge, if properly done, can be enough of a practice in some ways.

BTC: Yes. There's a lot of confusion about sadhana practice and initiation and tantra in general. Many people might receive an initiation, get the sadhana texts, never have teachings on it, and then—of course—they don't understand what they're supposed to be doing and it seems like a lot of words to them. That's why I provide an explanation and orientation for sadhana practice in my book.

JC: You've written interesting material about saying mantra—what to visualize, how to deal with distractions—and an extensive section on dissolving into emptiness, too, which is applicable to many other practices.

Sadhanas have been honed, all these years, by great lamas. You could take one, and just go further and further into each part and you wouldn't be leaving any dharma out.

BTC: Exactly. They're very comprehensive.

JC: So if you could just have one practice under your belt that you could fall back on, in a way it's all one needs. There's that old saying about doing just one thing well...

BTC: The question comes up a lot. Sometimes people who take a lot of initations can get confused by having so many deities to practice. So I really encourage them to see which manifestation of the Buddha they resonate with the most, and to focus on that practice. And if they have commitments to do other ones, they should do those practices quickly, so that they can spend most of their time meditating on their principal one.

The reason why—when someone's taken other commitments—to do the practices quickly is that there are certain situations where the energy, the specialty, of that particular deity is really needed. For example, it may not be my main deity, but when I go into prisons, I always do Chenrezig practice. It's because Chenrezig is the exact opposite energy of the energy in the prison and I want to come in presenting this whole other energy to the people I encounter—something that gives them hope and speaks to their hearts to let them know that there's kindness in the universe. And then there are other practices when I go into...

JC: Shopping malls? You see them as a mandala, right?

BTC: (laughing) I haven't gotten that far yet. What I do in a shopping mall is the offering practice. You can think of the mandala, and offer and offer and offer.

JC: So many people are going there to be fed in some way. Perhaps one can visualize them as receiving more abundance than they could have expected, more generosity.

BTC: Actually I was just thinking about this today, how people feel that hole inside of themselves and try to fill it by shopping. You could be the deity in the shopping mall and send out light to all of them, and imagine that you're eliminating that craving and need inside their hearts and filling it instead with the love and compassion of the Buddha. When people have that kind of heart, a heart of love and compassion that extends outward, then they don't have this feeling of an endless pit of neediness inside.

JC: That's beautiful. So maybe you can become the shopping mall dakini.

BTC: I practice it more in airports, because I travel a lot!

JC: What draws you to the thousand-armed Chenrezig?

BTC: First of all, His Holiness the Dalai Lama frequently gives initiation into this particular form, so many people have received it. Another reason is that there's something about a thousand arms stretched out. Your body reaching out to all sentient beings—the physical imagery of that is so powerful. It expands our heart, it expands our mind, it gets us out of our self-preoccupation with our own problems.

JC: There is that energy of reaching to the ends of your universe, touching everyone or every situation that you could encounter.

BTC: Right, it is not having our hands folded across our chest and our head looking down. It is the mind that is able to look at and accept everything, all the suffering in the world, and yet have an optimistic attitude. To me that form of Chenrezig is the antidote to the 6 o'clock news. What a great practice to do when you watch the news.

There is something so gentle about Chenrezig, yet powerful. When you are doing self generation of the deity, and sound and mantra is vibrating in the universe and that is all there is in the universe—the deity of the sound of om mani padme hum—it is like, whoa, really powerful. It speaks to a mind state that we can have that is very clear and very assertive at the same time but has no edge. And this is a quality that you can see in His Holiness. He is so gentle but he is right there. No one can step all over him.

JC: I have seen where he has been strong with someone and it is like the earth shakes. At the same time you feel that his love is always present.

BTC: When you know that a disciple can take that kind of guidance and wants it, then you know the disciple is close to the teacher. The teacher can tell the truth directly. It is almost a compliment when the teacher can say things directly.

JC: When the teacher feels that it is their responsibility then you know they care about you.

BTC: I would like to say something more about the benefits of the practice. What I see is that people like sadhana practice because they know where they are at in it. There is step one, step two, step three and so on. It is much easier for them to stay focused. Another thing people like: When you are visualizing light coming in, it is so difficult to stay down and depressed. People feel quite invigorated after they have done sadhana practice. They have had this connection with the deity that is the embodiment of the three jewels and this light from the deity is coming into them. They really feel the purification and they feel that the energy of the deity is making to grow in their own heart their own wisdom and compassion. People feel quite joyful after the practice. When you feel joyful, you want to come back for the next session.

In terms of the obstacles that people come up with, one of them is boredom. That comes up with any dharma practice. Whenever boredom comes up you have to stop and look at what is the mind of boredom. What affliction is present here, what am I wanting, what am I craving and yearning for that makes me bored with this practice right now? It is a good opportunity to investigate the nature of boredom that is so prevalent in our society. Other obstacles: Sometimes the practice becomes too intellectual and people do the practice without doing the meditation on emptiness properly beforehand. That can bring an obstacle. They might see themselves as an inherently existent deity and then they rationalize some not so good qualities...like when there is yab/yum deity practice or wrathful deity practice. That doesn't happen so much with Chenrezig practice.

JC: You mean to justify desire or anger?

BTC: Yes. That is why those practices are highest yoga tantra practices and are not for beginners. You have to have some grasp of emptiness before doing them. His Holiness recommends that when people are ready to take an initiation, they should start with a kriya tantra practice and not go directly to highest yoga tantra.

JC: There are teachers who will give higher yoga tantra intiations rather easily. People might think that because they had Kalachakra that this qualifies them for other highest yoga tantra initiations.

BTC: There are people who do that but then you find after a few months, perhaps, that they are not doing the commitments any longer, they are confused and they want to give back their tantric vows. This is not the way and His Holiness does not advocate this. When he gives Kalachakra, he gives the option so that the new people can just be neutral observers and not actually take the initiation. I think a lot of confusion arises because our Western mind is used to thinking that we want the best and the highest and so we assume we are qualified when we are not. It is our Western consumer mind that wants to be entertained. At an intiation there is a throne, music, water, so many things that are entertaining to the mind, we can just sit back and take it in, not realizing that we are supposed to be meditating and being involved in it—we see it as getting some blessing and we don't have to put out any energy. People have that idea because tantra isn't explained adequately. And one of the reasons is that people don't go to the teachings where it is explained.

JC: When I have gone for commentary on tantras, the mudras and visualizations were explained, but not much was said that would put tantra in the context of overall Buddhist practice—what kind of practitioner is capable of doing the higher practices, for example.

I remember His Holiness teaching before the Kalachakra in Madison Square Garden some years ago and he said he was not going to be able to complete the 10 bodhisattva levels until after he died because in that state he would have certain conditions that would allow him do certain practices that he could not do now as a monk. That impressed me. He knew clearly where he was at and what his current situation would allow—and was patient.

Wanting to rush ahead so much actually keeps us from going anywhere. As you were saying earlier, it is necessary to first find your body-mind where it is. From there you can move.

BTC: People have an inflated sense of what is possible right now and want so desperately to be different that they rush to the higher practices. The initial practices really help us to accept who we are, and I think that self-acceptance is crucial for getting anywhere on the path. Without self-acceptance, as long as we are thinking, "I am not good enough, I am deficient, I am full of guilt and shame," we may try to do some kind of non-conceptual meditation of mahamudra or dzogchen, but we are not dealing with the core issues.

I was just in Thailand studying with a teacher there, because His Holiness thought I should learn some Theravada Buddhism, and what was fascinating for me was that as I was doing the four foundations of mindfulness practices, I began to appreciate the power of tantra more than before. When you do the mindfulness of the body, you really come to see what this body is. You don't hate your body but just see it for what it is. Then when you dissolve into emptiness and re-emerge with a deity's body, then the power of this hits your mind really strongly. If you don't have any renunciation of samsara before you do the deity practice, it becomes just a Halloween display. You just dress up as Chenrezig.

When you dissolve into emptiness and re-emerge with the deity's body, then you get an idea of really the kind of transformation that tantra is looking at—and some of what you may be able to do in the future when you can manifest many bodies and go throughout the universe to benefit others. So it gives us a healthier way to relate to our own body, pulls us out of too tight an identification with this physical body, and gives us an image of another kind of body that can really be used throughout all time and space for the benefit of all sentient beings.

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More about Thubten Chodron . . .

To read more about Thubten Chodron and her activities, visit:

www.sravastiabbey.org   and    www.thubtenchodron.org

To view additional photographs, see:

www.thubtenchodron.org/BuddhistNunsMonasticLife/buddhist_nuns_monastic_life.html

Thubten Chodron is the author of several books, including: